Meaningful Conversation to Create Something New: An Interview with David Hutchens

from Leverage Points Issue 59

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This March, Pegasus Communications is releasing the newest book in its popular Learning Fables Series—Listening to the Volcano: Conversations That Open Our Minds to New Possibilities. In 1998, when the first fable, Outlearning the Wolves, was published, readers were delighted with author David Hutchens's wicked humor and illustrator Bobby Gombert's artful drawings. Since then, the two have collaborated with Pegasus to create an engaging set of books that help people implement key organizational learning tools in the workplace.

In their most recent endeavor, Listening to the Volcano, Hutchens and Gombert take on the challenge of conversation, illuminating the truth that how we communicate something is often as important as what we say. In the following interview conducted by Leverage Points editor Kali Saposnick, David Hutchens shares some observations about why productive conversation is a core issue in organizational settings today and how we can better interact with each other and strengthen our work environments by improving the ways we talk together.

Leverage Points: What inspired you to write Listening to the Volcano?

David Hutchens: I wrote the book to provide a tool to help people access some new conversation skills and hopefully begin building new possibilities together. In my work with many different organizations, I've observed that it doesn't matter how big or complex the business challenges are. Inevitably, the core issue is simple and universal. The same problem that creates tension in my family is the one that creates conflict in a company with many thousands of employees: Disintegration. That is, the parts of the organization are disconnected, and people aren't talking to each other in purposeful and meaningful ways. They aren't looking beyond their own piece of reality to inquire into the perspectives of others for a view of the greater whole.

Conversation of a more disciplined and productive variety is an important way to repair the fracture. That's why I wrote Listening to the Volcano. It's an introduction to this important capability. My hope is that this book can contribute to helping people interact in more productive ways.

LP: What kinds of dynamics in organizations do you feel present the biggest challenges to growth and change?

DH: I'm currently working with a Fortune 100 organization with a global presence that is reexamining every aspect of its business: Its culture, strategies, processes—everything. It's a massive undertaking. Based on this company's comprehensive internal data gathering, one of the recurring—and most critical—findings is that many parts of the organization are not integrated. The organization's many business units are not communicating, sharing knowledge, or collaborating. Rather, each piece is fragmented, pursuing its own best interests without enough consideration for the larger organization.

Sure, in a global organization, communication can be more difficult because of the geographic separation. But that can be resolved through the purchase of some plane tickets, really. The core challenge is much harder. Each member has to say: "Am I willing to take the courageous step of putting my own views, beliefs, and mental models out there for consideration ... and at the same time am I willing to deeply understand the views of another—and perhaps even be changed by them?"

Many people think making a global organization work is endlessly complex. And I guess it is. But the true path to change is one that can be practiced by anyone, and must be practiced by everyone. It's productive conversation. Maybe you don't need that McKinsey consultant or Harvard MBA to improve your processes. You may just need a forum to look one another in the face and develop the transparency to communicate in a new way.

LP: In the discussion guide at the end of Listening to the Volcano, you describe how easy it is to fall into default modes of talking and listening, even with your family. Can you describe some of your own efforts to talk in more productive ways?

DH: Productive conversation is such a personal discipline, and a pervasive one. It shows up everywhere in my work and certainly in my own family.

I remember one winter, after Christmas, when business and cash flow both had slowed down. My wife Robbie called me on the phone to tell me someone had just pulled up in front of our house with a big flatbed truck full of gardening mulch and had asked if he could mulch our garden for us. "We haven't budgeted for that," I responded, "and we have other financial priorities."

"I know," she said, "but we can put off some of the other things. I can tell this guy really needs the work. He's got a crew with him ready to start right now. And our garden really needs the mulch. This is the time of year that you're supposed to be putting it down, you know. I'd love to get this taken care of."

I said, "Okay, fine. Go for it. We'll rework the budget later." I returned to the house later in the afternoon, just as the crew was finishing up. They had done a great job—using high-quality mulch, not the cheap stuff we always get. Plus they had put down a good seven inches.

I went inside, and my wife said, "David, it's time to pay the guy, but he has a speech impediment. I can't understand what he's saying. Could you go talk to him?" I did. Robbie was right—he was difficult to understand. But when he told me the price, I heard him loud and clear: $700.

I paid him, went back inside, and told Robbie that it cost $700. Her face went white. She never dreamed it would cost that much. But the price was fair, considering the amount and quality of mulch, as well as the number of man hours. "I can't believe you just hired this guy without asking him the price!" I said, angrily.

She said, "I did ask him, but I couldn't understand him, and I was too embarrassed to keep asking him to repeat himself."

"Well, you should have found out. Your mistake cost us a lot of money."

She said, "Yes, it was a mistake. But you know what? I don't care, because we needed it. If I hadn't hired that guy, our yard would have looked like trash all winter long." I took that as a personal insult and left the room feeling angry and unappreciated. She was angry, too, and felt insulted by my judgment of her.

This is an example of classic discussion. We each presented our position and broke the reality down into the pieces we saw. We both justified and defended our positions. We both tried to persuade the other to see our side. And neither of us got what we wanted.

She came back to me later, and we both apologized and spent some time talking about what had happened, asking each other questions, and uncovering a lot of hidden issues that were connected to the situation. We talked about how anxious I felt trying to manage a restrictive budget, especially after the expensive Christmas season. She talked about how overwhelmed she felt managing the household, including our two small kids. We even had a long and revealing discussion about the yard and what it represents to each of us. (For Robbie, it connected back to her childhood embarrassment of her father's keeping old engines and dismantled cars scattered around their front yard.)

We also practiced "reflective openness," participating with the mindset that: "I do not expect to 'win' this conversation." "I want to understand you." "I don't have the full picture. I want to see what you see." "I expect to be changed by this conversation."

That one event prompted two hours of deep conversation. It was hard work. We were amazed at how many things were connected to that garden mulch, and we emerged with a much deeper appreciation for one another.

LP: Why did you choose a volcano as the centerpiece for a book on conversation?

DH: The volcano is simply a metaphor for threat. In the story, you'll see that I've put our hero and her neighbors in an absurd and impossible scenario with seemingly few options for change. Of course, there are other options, but few that people can see. It's a metaphor that connects with my own experience in organizations. The challenge is how do we create something new? as opposed to simply reacting to what is.

Productive conversation is a path that is rich with possibility. I hope the messages in Listening to the Volcano will entice more people to explore that path.